I’m Greg McIntyre the elder law guy and today on Lunch with a Veteran I have a special guest, Dr Rit Varriale who is a veteran and a pastor of Elizabeth Baptist Church here in Shelby North Carolina.
You’re not only a veteran, you’re an Army Ranger?
RV: I went to Ranger school, Ranger class 2/93, we finished up January 22nd of 1993 and from there I went to the 82nd Airborne Division as a Scout Platoon Leader for Division Scouts.
When I was in the configuration for the division, every infantry battalion had a scout platoon, then the division had three scout platoons that was attached to the aviation brigade, and I was one of the leaders for division scouts for two years. Great privilege, great opportunity to be a scout platoon leader for that long, and then I was executive officer of division scouts for eight years, so I had a great time.
GM: I’ll bet, and stayed in great shape.
RV: Yes, and I still like to work out so, chalk that up to the Army.
GM: I know you do a workout program here in the community called F3.
RV: F3, is fitness, fellowship and faith. Basically what we say is, in order for a man to reach his full potential, he has to bond with other guys committed to those same things. They are committed to physical and mental fitness, they are committed to fellowship with one another, and they are committed to faith which is the most important thing.
GM: And it’s from 5:15 am to 6am.
RV: 5:15 sharp and the claim to fame is it’s free, it’s not going to cost you anything. It’s all guys and is outside regardless of the weather conditions, so, rain, sleet, snow. We have been going for almost two and half years now, and we have not missed a weekday workout, even in times when there has been an ice or snow storm, at least one guy has shown up at the workout site, called AO’s and has worked out on his own and then posted a workout, so, a two and half year streak working out every morning. Now, I’ve missed a few, and everyone has missed a few but the guys have kept it going. That’s part of the camaraderie of the fellowship.
GM: Do the workout sites change?
RV: The workout sites change. We are at the city park, the new ball-fields behind the city park on Monday and Thursday mornings at 5:15am sharp, we will start doing our calisthenics and then go into the workout. On Tuesdays and Fridays those are our run days. On Tuesday we meet at the Earl Scruggs center where we do light calisthenics and stretching and then boom, we hit the road running. Guys go in different directions because they have different skill levels with running so you go at your own pace. Some just walk around the court square and do exercises around there. On Friday morning we just changed our AO to the new First Broad River Park on Grover Street that has the trail running along to Ingles on the west side. If you start at the parking lot and run to Ingles and back, it’s right at three miles. Wednesdays we meet at the community college and that’s another boot-camp workout. So, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday are boot-camp workouts, Tuesday and Friday are run days. It’s a nice balanced workout.
You can message me or go to F3 on Facebook or Twitter and F3nation.com on the web and find local F3 groups.
GM: It sounds like the Army Ranger fitness has carried on throughout the rest of your life. I think that’s important. Did you get that from the military or where you in to fitness and sports before that?
RV: In high school I played football, wrestled and did track and I also spent a lot of time in the outdoors, skiing, hunting and hiking so all of that was already part of my life. I think that was why I gravitated towards the military and the Army in particular, so when I got to the citadel it was a natural fit. I liked the regimented lifestyle, it worked well for me. I liked the citadel after the first year.
GM: Yeah, I’ve read the forbidden book ‘Lords of Discipline.’ So you go to the citadel, you’re an athlete in high school, how did you head towards being a pastor?
RV: That really started with a transition in my father’s life. When I was nine going on ten my father went through a pretty radical conversion experience. He wasn’t a hell-raiser, he was with GE, very responsible, committed to his work, committed to bringing home resources for his family but he was more committed to himself outside of work and those responsibilities than anything else. In his own words, the person he loved most in life was himself. He still loved my mother, he loved me but there was a lot going on in his life that God needed to work on, and until then our family was not as stable as it needed to be. When God got hold of my dad, it was a pretty amazing transformation. Even as a child, I couldn’t deny the change that was taking place, that I watched unfold before my eyes with my dad. That instilled in me that the relationship with God was real, and the relationship with God was powerful, and the relationship with God was needed for families to be all they could be, for men to be all they could be. So, growing up with that appreciation for what God did in my dad, that kept me in a closer relationship with God than otherwise. If my dad hadn’t gone through that, if my parents had split up there is no telling which direction my life would have gone. So, when I left home I had instilled in me this sense of God and country, you honor God with your life, you seek to serve God with your life. None of us is perfect but God is there and cares and can make a difference. That was very much instilled in me going to the citadel. As I went through the citadel I grew in my relationship with the lord. I think it was during that time that I realized my relationship with God had to become my relationship with God, and I couldn’t live off my dad’s spiritual coattails. I had to establish this sense of understanding and commitment to God on my own.
The neat thing was in my senior year, which was a year of spiritual formation for me, was the year I met my wife, and she was going through a very similar process in her life where she wanted to draw closer to God, she wanted the faith to become more real to her. We met in the fall of 1991 in Charleston and God just took that relationship and really did some wonderful things with it. When we got married shortly after I finished my Army Observer basic course, I went to regular school, then after that she and I went back to Fort Knox, Kentucky, where I did a scout platoon leaders course, then I went to Fort Bragg. One of the things we wanted to do was get plugged in to a good church. We had a church family at Fort Bragg which was absolutely wonderful. The pastor of that church asked me if I would start doing a home bible study at our house on base. I was reluctant because I didn’t feel I knew enough about the bible to do that, and he said, well you just pray about it. In my time of deliberation, I felt God was saying, the day you think you do know enough on your own and stand up to represent me, is the day you need to sit down and shut up. You will never know enough about me to represent me in your own strength. You go with what I have given you and go with it. So, I went back to him and said, I’ll start bible study and I’ll just go with what I’ve got and we’ll let the lord build on it from there.
That bible study was the beginning of the end of my military career, even though I didn’t know it, because my love for studying the bible, the thrill of watching people grow in their relationships with the lord, especially those people who come to Christ for the first time, that started to supersede my love for the military.
I can remember, it was just before I felt the call out of the military and into the ministry that there was a parachute jump going on at Fort Bragg, just a training jump, and the aircraft wasn’t filled. Whenever that would happen they would put a call out to unit commanders, hey, we need jumpers to fill this aircraft and my commander said, hey, we need to fill an aircraft so grab your gear, we are going to jump tonight. Well, I told him, sir, this is bible study night, and he said, we’re not being paid to bible study, we’re paid to jump so get your gear, we’re jumping. I remember being so frustrated that I was going to miss bible study. I was looking forward to it, I had prepared for it, and it hit me that day that something was going on here because years ago if someone had put out the word there were some extra seats and we we’re going to jump, I would have had someone fill in for me because my desire would have been to jump. So, in that period of time my desires changed. I was called into the ministry and in 1996 I left the military and went in the ministry.
GM: But when the military says jump you jump.
RV: Yeah, I still jump.
GM: I had a similar experience with a fire school I was supposed to go to and I had a test set up for GMATS or something to go to MBA school at San Diego State for when I came out the military. I had a chief who just dressed me down because my desires were to go further my education and not go to fire-fighting school. I was saying, but chief I’m getting out shortly after this six-month cruise and I want to go to school. They’re not really so concerned with that.
RV: Yeah, sometimes you get that attitude and those of you who are veterans watching have probably felt those same frustrations, they don’t necessarily want you to be pro-active and think about what you’re going to do, they want you to do what you are told to do. There’s a reason for that but it can be frustrating.
GM: That’s true. My desire to further my education did not match up with what the Navy had in mind for me. That doesn’t mean I could not have crafted a path within the military, I could have, many do, where I would have ended up as an attorney and in the military. You have to seek the right path and talk to the right people.
So at that time you had done your under-grad at the citadel but not done your doctoral work?
RV: At that point I had just gone to the citadel and graduated from there in 1992, and my plan was to trap through all the military programs because I had no plans on getting out. When I got out the military I knew I wanted to go to an institution where I could enhance my theological understanding. To me, the degree wasn’t the primary motive, it was the learning to get an understanding of God’s word, old testament, new testament, the history of Christianity. My thinking was, if you are going to lead the church, just like if you’re going to lead troops, and especially elite troops, you have to be prepared, you have to know your stuff. I felt the same way about the ministry, if I’m going to lead in church, I want to be prepared and understand Christian history and the debates that have circled around Christian theology throughout the ages, and look up things in the old and new testaments and have a measure of independence doing those things and studying and researching. That is why I started to work on my graduate programs in theology.
GM: You went through several graduate programs?
RV: Yeah. Up until my Masters in divinity at Campbell, school was a means to an end, whether it was high school, or the citadel, it was always, I have to do this to get where I eventually want to go. When I started studying theology, the study became an end unto itself. My wife used to say, you’re definitely a nerd because you’re the only person I know who at the beginning of the semester you come home with more books than what’s on the reading list. For me I found that when I went to Campbell, my studies were kind of therapeutic and for the ministry I think it is very important for ministers to have that ability to pull away from the busyness of a congregation, from the sorrows, stresses, the funerals and negative diagnoses from doctors, and be able to recharge your batteries. Not only do you have to bear the sorrows and unfortunate situations of life for the congregation, you have the highlights also, the birth of children, the weddings things like that. There are a lot of emotions flying about. If a minister doesn’t have that ability to pull away, they’re going to burn out. I found my studies were something that forced me to pull away and in doing so, it was therapy for me.
GM: You have written a book called Reformation and Responsibility, and you’re coming out with a second book called God Before Government. Did you always know you would start writing books or did that just happen?
RV: Once I found reading and researching to be therapeutic from a ministry perspective, the same thing happened from a social perspective while watching the radical changes taking place in our nation since the World War two era. This ship where the Judeo-Christian ethic was a respected driving force of the nation, that from world war two until now, the Judeo-Christian ethic is almost viewed as a racist attitude or oral view that needs to be subjugated to this general notion of liberal secularism. I found I wanted to weigh in on the conversation and write something. What was laid out in my heart was this concept of a reformation.
Roughly every five hundred years a pendulum in a society needs to swing because we need course corrections as human beings. One generation will get fixated on a certain course heading and the next generation picks that up and drives it further, and the next even further until they realize, you know what, back when this started, this course heading was good, it was a good correction but now that we have forced this same course heading for three or four hundred years, it’s become counter-productive. To put some hands and feet to it, the hyper individualism of our current culture is a perfect example of that. The focus on the individual that was a part of the enlightenment which was the dominant thinking in the time our nation was birthed, was good. Coming out of medieval Europe, late medieval period, renaissance period leading to the enlightenment period, and this idea that every person has worth and value, not just royalty, everybody, we’re one hundred percent on board with that, that was a good course correction, but when you start forcing the issue of individualism and individual rights to the extent that we are at today, it becomes counter-productive to the society. It’s no longer good for the whole approach, it now becomes where the larger sentiment, the majority is subjugated to the minority sentiment. Why? because we have adopted, without thinking it right the way through, that the minority must always be protected from the majority. Any situation where a particular ideology or minority group is being disenfranchised by the majority sentiment, immediately there is the rule of government to silence that majority sentiment, to handcuff it and give free voice and free reign to the minority segment. We have been on that course heading for a long time now. We are now just starting to see that a course correction is needed. If we don’t make that correction, things will be highly problematic for our country.
GM: By highly problematic, you mean destabilizing? It is scary to think whether we can survive some of the things we are going through and if it will rip us apart? You can see the clash coming.
RV: And it happens so fast. Those who are interested in this conversation and want to take it a little bit further, get on google and search ‘Roosevelt Bible.’ Then go to images and in the first ten or fifteen images, you will see a bible come up. What that is, is the Navy edition bible, the service member’s bible that President Roosevelt commissioned during world war two. When you consider the fact that the President of the United States commissioned that every service member in all the armed forces be given a bible as they prepared to defend our nation, that in itself speaks volumes compared to the attitude many of our leaders have today toward Christianity. Then when you look closer at the image of that bible it has the Christian flag above the American flag.
GM: The President of the United States endorsed that bible.
RV: And then it says right below the American flag, the church pennant is the only flag ever to be hoisted over the flag, and it is to be hoisted during divine services. Now ask yourself this question, Was President Roosevelt a smart man? Yes, he was, a very smart man. Was he aware that in the 1940’s there were Muslims in America? Yes. Was he aware that there were atheists in America? Yes. But, was he also aware that, if this is going to be a government of the people, by the people, for the people, and the vast majority of the people were Christians, then a display like this of the Christian church flag, the only flag that can be put over the American flag, the President of the United States said that. He put his signature to it. People are flabbergasted to know we even have these bibles but it’s that in such a short period of time those things have changed.
GM: I guess things always change but it’s like you can confess almost anything but your Christian beliefs. Any other belief is okay and you can voice that, and not only that but you can be violent and radical about it. That’s looked upon as okay. However, to voice a mainstream or opposing religious belief about any issue, that’s something you can be fined over, taxed over or put in jail over, and it happens.
RV: Right, and what we have forgotten again is, I did a piece with PRI, Public Radio International leading up to the election. I was talking to them about evangelicalism and the 2016 election but in that conversation I made the statement to the editor I was talking to that the irony is that those who are known in our culture for being open minded and diverse, are not seeking diversity and open mindedness, they are seeking conformity and they want to silence anyone who doesn’t agree with them. They want freedom of speech except for you, they want everyone to live out their values except for this group. It is highly inconsistent. This was the statement I made on PRI, if you are really going to promote diversity, then that means you have to allow people to think differently, you have to respect the diversity of opinions out there. Individuals think differently and they influence one another and you will have communities who think differently from one another, which means you will have regions who think differently, and states that think differently.
GM: Which is how our government was originally set up to run, not with this federal oversight that makes everyone think the same way.
RV: Exactly. There should be a diversity of thought and practice from one state to another. Those who promote that are the ones who are truly promoting diversity. Those who resist and fight that are the ones who are seeking conformity. So the great irony is, you have the left that seeks conformity, and it’s the conservative right that gives way to diversity.
GM: It’s a discussion that has not had much air time, a few outlets, lesser known media that will actually discuss that. But I think the media at this point has lost all sense of credibility for the most part. I enjoy switching on and catching up on politics but I will flip through all the channels and get the different points of view just so I know where they are coming from and try to formulate what the truth is. It is hard to do because you do have this whole propaganda machine pushing an agenda that is being pushed on to an entire nation.
RV: The development of social media is very beneficial in some way. Certainly one of the positives is to get information out that is more accurate than the once trusted mainstream media is putting out. You can get information out quickly to a large group of people to counter the false narrative that’s already out there. Granted, do I think the President should tweet as much as he does on so many things, he should probably reign it in a little bit, but there is still a legitimacy.
GM: Roosevelt went straight for people with his fireside chats and was extremely partisan with those to get the message out directly to the people.
RV: Right into the home with new technology. The only difference between how Roosevelt used the media and twitter is Roosevelt’s chat had to be scheduled well ahead of air time, with social media, you think it, you type it, you put it out there.
GM: Certainly the media doesn’t love that. How can they control that?
RV: For me, I’m really optimistic because I hope that it does force truth because it doesn’t matter who you are, if you are going to say something that is blatantly false, then the reality of that falsehood is probably going to be brought to the surface relatively quick. I think that is a good thing.
GM: I couldn’t agree more. You hear a lot of hearings and spins from political outlets in Washington and elsewhere, and then you can look at individuals who are putting out information about that subject and see an overall picture to light up the whole scene.
Now, you have actually flown the Christian flag over the American flag, I was at a ceremony where you did that. You made national news for doing that. You were on Fox news right? They were hard on you. I was surprised but you really held your own. I was very proud.
RV: There was a lot of good lessons learned there. I have not really talked about it publicly but you are right, when they contacted me on the days leading up to being on Fox news, the enthusiasm they had and the excitement they had seemed to suggest it was going to be a positive conversation. Those people who have been in the media and done interviews know what I’m talking about here. When you are speaking from a remote location, I went to the Fox studio in Charlotte, not Fox46 but they’ve got another small studio where they do feeds to New York. You’re in a room that is very small, and you are just looking at the camera. You can’t see what’s taking place on Fox news, you have an ear piece in so you can hear the individuals that are talking, and then the producers and the behind the scenes technology gurus, they can talk to you as well, so they’re telling you, okay, you’re going to be on in twenty seconds, you can hear the commercials and the people on Fox talking to each other, and then they will give you a countdown, five, four, three, two , one boom and I was really expecting a cordial conversation, God and country, but they threw it out there by saying, this is creating outrage, is this a display of patriotism or what? I’ll tell you what, here is a lesson for everyone and this really sunk in, I wish I had had this Roosevelt Bible knowledge before we did the flag thing.
GM: I thought that’s what sparked it for you?
RV: I didn’t know about it. If I had known about that bible, I would have brought it on Fox news with me but here’s the lesson, when something is right and you step out and do it, even if you do not have all your ducks in a row, even if you don’t have all your research that could really help you, the reality is, if it’s right, it will prove itself to be right in the end.
As soon as we did it, even though the media was casting it as an outrage, we tracked the number of comments coming in on Facebook, on our church message lines. Seventy-five percent of the people were thumbs up, God and country all the way and twenty-five percent were vehemently against it. They were militant in some cases, very threatening.
I think for the left, a lot of times they try to say conservatives have phobias. Let’s say you don’t agree with the issue of homosexuality, the left say, it’s not that you have a certain ethic that you are trying to uphold, no, no, it’s not that, you’re a homophobe. There’s a fear there. But when you step back and look at it, the ones who act the most fearful are the ones who are pushing the progressive agenda, and I think there is a legitimacy to the fear. That is, if the American people were to wake up to such things as the Roosevelt bible, and if the people would stand up to the courts as times, I think the left knows it’s game over, because now you have unleashed the sentiment of the majority, the power of the people, and the reality is, even though they claim to be the people’s party, the last thing they want is for the people to act on their power, their freedom of choice.
GM: Say an activist judge issues an opinion that was against one’s religious beliefs, and on the grounds of freedom of speech and freedom to practice our religion, you refuse to carry out an order that was against the US constitution. Here’s a question, would that be patriotic or not? You would be saying, no judge, you have issued an illegal order that I will not carry out.
RV: It’s like the old revolutionary war slogan, defiance to tyrants is obedience to God. Even the bill of rights, everybody knows the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but then just a few lines below it the more relevant and important line of the declaration of independence for our time, is the notion that when any government becomes destructive to these ends, those ends being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it says, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. Then it goes on to say that, (and we are living prove of this,) although history has proven that people are more willing to suffer evils while they are tolerable than to right the wrongs to which they have come accustomed. The declaration itself says that, we have the unalienable rights from God and that is what gives us the authority at times to say no to the authorities. I remember watching a debate between a conservative judge and Cuomo on CNN, and Cuomo kept saying, come on judge, our rights don’t come from God, they come from people, let’s be practical about this, it was interesting that they never got to the crutch of the conversation, it’s not about so much the law written on paper, it’s about the ideology behind the law. If you’re ideology is that the only authority in life is the human authorities over you, what are you going to do when there are tyrants? What are you going to do when they’re wrong? But if you believe there is a higher authority and it is that higher authority that gives you the ability to ascertain whether those human authorities are right or wrong based on what you know of the higher authority, then not only does it give you that ability to ascertain what they’re doing is right or wrong, it also gives you the legitimacy to stand up and say no to them.
Here is a great irony of our culture and our day and age, take our current governor Cooper, the left, in order to, and one of the reasons why they win is because they are more tenacious at fighting. When Cooper did not like amendment one, he flat out said, I am not going to obey the law, I am not going to enforce the law, and he’s governor. Why is he governor? Well, he who dares wins. His base knows that when push comes to shove they hammer down. But when conservatives come down to that, they haven’t been willing to take that same strong stand.
GM: I don’t know if the conservatives and the outspoken part, the rebel conservatives always go together but we do need more outspoken conservatives who can articulate the message in a healthy, positive way and to influence people.
RV: And the reality is, heck I don’t agree with myself a lot of the time, so I don’t expect any one else to agree with me all the time.
GM: So, you flew the Christian flag over the American flag and you’ve written this great book Reformation and Responsibility, and also you have another book coming out shortly.
RV: It is supposed to be out but you know how that is, but the book is called God Before Government, and here’s the issue in that, we tell people to pay attention to the words because the words are important. It’s not God before country, because we love our country, and we respect our government but when you sit down and look at it from a biblical perspective, old and new testaments, any time a human authority asks you to dishonor your commitment to God, your commitment to God has to trump your obedience to that human authority.
GM: But what about my family, what about my pension, what about my pay check? Those are questions you will hear. Our commitment to Christianity is not necessarily about what is practical, it’s about what’s right. There was no bigger rebel than Jesus Christ.
RV: Yeah, and that’s the point, if you stop and think about it, what sent Jesus to the cross? It was civil disobedience. Had he simply tolled the line with his teachings and respected the temple in Jerusalem and the leading Pharisees in the local synagogues in the area, had he simply fallen in line with them and marched to their orders, he would never have gone to the cross.
GM: The people that were worried about their lives were the people who denied him.
RV: Which is hard for us as humans, he is the lord and he demonstrated that kind of courage and conviction doing always those things that pleased the father. We are human beings and even though we may have the zeal and courage of a Peter that at one moment says, look, if everyone abandons you I will die with you, but in twenty-four hours we can find we’re denying him three times in a row and that’s our human weakness.
GM: The real question for me is, what you do as a Christian when you carry out orders of the court, orders of the government that go against everything that Christianity is, is that what you do?
RV: Certainly different scenarios require different responses, should there be limits to religious freedom? Everybody would say yes. Should we be able to go out and sacrifice animals? No. So, we believe there should be a limit to religious freedom. You don’t have a blank check to say, well this is what I believe theologically and so therefore I have the right to do it, this is what my God says. No, that would be chaos. The question that we are wrestling with today isn’t what are the limits of religious freedom? The question we’re wrestling with today is, what are the limits of secularism?
To what extent does secularism have the right to go into the public school system, to go into private businesses and into every nook and cranny of society and say, this is my domain and if you are going to play here, then you are going to check your religious beliefs in at the door?
The question is, rolling back the over reach of secularism, we have well defined the limits of religion in this country.
GM: Sure, and I think anybody is saying look, you’re not saying everybody has to belief a certain thing, or do it a certain way just because you do that, we now no longer have the right to do it a certain way.
RV: The brilliance of the founding father’s statehood and having differences of opinion and practice, one state to another is part of the solution. The longer we go down this road of a zero sum gain, winner takes all with respect to ethics and society in America is a recipe for complete disaster.
GM: It is a recipe for disaster, revolution and chaos. I want to say the Roman empire had a similar end with vast corruption and pushing secular agendas.
RV: Let people live and let live. Most conservatives, most evangelicals I know here in North Carolina, they have no desire to tell people in California, or New Hampshire what to do with their lives and how to live them, but at the same time they have no desire for the people of California and New Hampshire to tell us how we are going to live our lives.
Can we still come together for a larger common good with respect to finance systems and the military for the country? Sure, yes we can. But the more we try to push this winner take all approach into the most personal areas of our lives, such as religion, the more dangerous the course we are on as a nation.
GM: Thank you because who would have thought a southern Baptist minister could be such a rebel. You are so smart and articulate.
RV: I don’t know about that.
GM: I think you have definitely followed in the steps of Christ because I identify with that part of his life when I think about going against the system because that is hard to do. It’s hard for me to go against the system because I feel that pressure, I think about it at night, is this the right decision for different things in my life, those things where I decided to go against the grain. I think you are right, people who stand up and are bold enough to act how they belief will certainly energize people around them and more readily achieve their goals. Just like the governor of North Carolina.
RV: Exactly, he who dares wins. If you believe in your way of thinking and living, then give people the ability to do what they believe in and then in the end let’s see how it all pans out. I think that is a better approach. If any other state wants to take a completely different course from North Carolina, go at it, if you’ve got the votes, you’ve got the people, go at it. And if North Carolina wants to march to the beat of a different drum, great, we’ll check the results twenty-five years from now. Let’s see what the schools, families, finances look like and then we’ll compare.
GM: Families are in such trouble in the United States, it hurts my heart.
RV: This goes back to the whole notion of reformation and responsibility. The premise of it was that it’s not that God and society are responsible to the individual, individuals are responsible to God and to society starting with their families. So, where we needed that reformation in the sense of our responsibilities is all upside down right now. We act as though God owes the most dysfunctional individual something, and likewise, the larger society owes the most dysfunctional individual the right to be as dysfunctional as he or she wants to be.
If we start looking at it from the perspective of, we each have roles and responsibilities to play, my life is not my own, I should seek to honor something more than myself, than my own pleasures and my own desires, that starts with honoring God and then immediately spills over to honoring my family by fulfilling my responsibilities to my family. We have lost that.
We go to Jerusalem every year and I got my wedding ring in Jerusalem and is a great reminder of my wife Shannon, it says, my love, you are as beautiful as Jerusalem.
GM: Rit, I want to thank you for being on the show, it has been an honor and one of the most interesting conversations I’ve had.
Contact me if you have any questions. Elder Law is what we do!
greg@mcelderlaw.com
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